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default fonts - newbie questions

 
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kkiely

External


Since: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 105



(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:34 am
Post subject: default fonts - newbie questions
Archived from groups: alt>www>webmaster (more info?)

With HTML
1. Why are some font sized set to "12,14,16, etc" but some are set to "1,2,3".
Is there a preferred way?
2. How can I set it so my default font on my page is Arial?
3. I heard that even if you have a default font set to Arial on your page that
has tables that the text in the tables will not obey any global font setting
you put on the page, is this true? If so, do I have to stick in a a
"<font="arial"> tag on each cell in the table?
4. If you are going to give me a "Use CSS instead" answer, then . . . Can I mix
CSS and HTML? I am assuming CSS is some sort of an add-on language and not a
replacement of HTML.

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web1

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Since: Jul 03, 2003
Posts: 569



(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:07 am
Post subject: Re: default fonts - newbie questions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Kkiely wrote:
 > With HTML
 > 1. Why are some font sized set to "12,14,16, etc" but some are set to "1,2,3".
 > Is there a preferred way?
 > 2. How can I set it so my default font on my page is Arial?
 > 3. I heard that even if you have a default font set to Arial on your page that
 > has tables that the text in the tables will not obey any global font setting
 > you put on the page, is this true? If so, do I have to stick in a a
 > "<font="arial"> tag on each cell in the table?
 > 4. If you are going to give me a "Use CSS instead" answer, then . . . Can I mix
 > CSS and HTML? I am assuming CSS is some sort of an add-on language and not a
 > replacement of HTML.
 >

OK...I guess we have to take a while to look at the
basics

you'll need to get the detail from some of the tutorials
on the web stuff page of the site in my sig

here goes...first pretend you know nothing at all

html is a mark up language...it adds some context to the
content by using tags...for instance marking that
something is a paragraph beginning or end...or marking
something as being a table of data...in and of itself
html is not visual and only has an impact on the visual
presentation of a page through default browser settings
or through a user defined stylesheet...with html 3 and
before it was assumed that this would all be fairly
consistent and therefore html alone could do
presentation...and a number of purely visual tags were
added to the html spec...such as <font>

html 4 and beyond operate in a new, more flexible and
more efficient way...the html has returned to being
purely conceptual and the visual tags
dropped...presentation is done entirely through the use
of stylesheets

this makes html 4 extremely easy to use...there are fewer
tags and they all have a purely logical function...but it
means learning css to make it look good

css is fairly straightforward...defining fonts, colours
etc is very simple...layout means learning the "box
model" rather than thinking in terms of tables...the box
model is also simple...a piece of content is seen as a
box...in the centre is the content (text or image or
whatever)...the box is filled with padding which you can
specify the size of...and it is bounded by a border which
you can specify the width and appearance of...outside the
box is a margin which separates it from other parts of
the page

all you need then is to read up on how to float something
right or left, how to use clear to keep things in
place...and play about a bit...you'll already have much
the same level of "control" over the layout as with
tables...and that's without getting on to the
possibilities opened up by absolute positioning and the
less consistently supported stuff

you should have a go at trying the site in html 4 with
css...from the sound of it the content is ideal for that
sort of thing...since you could have a very
straightforward index page...and a very easy to update
set of state pages...which I'd guess is likely to be
important

--
eric
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ericjarvis.co.uk" target="_blank">www.ericjarvis.co.uk</a>
"Hey Lord don't ask me questions
There ain't no answer in me"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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kkiely

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Since: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 105



(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:07 am
Post subject: Re: default fonts - newbie questions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

so basically what you are saying is that the "box model" IS a table but you
guys just call it a different name (because of the conceptual difference)?
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dorward

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Since: Jun 27, 2003
Posts: 195



(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:19 am
Post subject: Re: default fonts - newbie questions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Kkiely wrote:

 > With HTML
 > 1. Why are some font sized set to "12,14,16, etc" but some are set to
 > "1,2,3".

HTML used to have 7 font sizes, with 3 being normal (IIRC).
CSS introduced a selection of units that could be used.
And some people tried to use point sizes in the deprecated <font> element's
size attribute.

 > Is there a preferred way?

To use CSS with relative units, such as em (leaving main body text as 1em -
the users preference)

 > 2. How can I set it so my default font on my page is Arial?

body {
font-family: Arial, sans-serif;
}

 > 3. I heard that even if you have a default font set to Arial on your page
 > that has tables that the text in the tables will not obey any global font
 > setting you put on the page, is this true?

Some browsers, in some modes, do not cascade font properties in to tables
correctly.

 > If so, do I have to stick in a "<font="arial"> tag on each cell in the
 > table?

The <font> element is deprecated and should never be used. You could have:

table {
font-family: inherit;
}

 > 4. If you are going to give me a "Use CSS instead" answer, then . . . Can
 > I mix CSS and HTML? I am assuming CSS is some sort of an add-on language
 > and not a replacement of HTML.

HTML is a language designed to describe the structure of a page (this is a
heading, this is a paragraph, this is important text).

The browser wars added a lot of presentational junk to HTML, which HTML 3.2
attempted to define.

HTML 4 deprecated that presentational junk and replaced it with CSS.

CSS is a presentation language designed for use with HTML. (headings should
look like this, paragraphs should look like this, important text should
look like this).

In the long run, CSS is much more powerful, flexible, and easier to
maintain.

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://dorward.me.uk/www/css/" target="_blank">http://dorward.me.uk/www/css/</a> might be of use.

--
David Dorward <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://dorward.me.uk/" target="_blank">http://dorward.me.uk/</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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davidvb

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Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 114



(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:54 am
Post subject: Re: default fonts - newbie questions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Kkiely wrote:
 > With HTML
 > 1. Why are some font sized set to "12,14,16, etc" but some are set to "1,2,3".
 > Is there a preferred way?
 > 2. How can I set it so my default font on my page is Arial?
 > 3. I heard that even if you have a default font set to Arial on your page that
 > has tables that the text in the tables will not obey any global font setting
 > you put on the page, is this true? If so, do I have to stick in a a
 > "<font="arial"> tag on each cell in the table?
 > 4. If you are going to give me a "Use CSS instead" answer, then . . . Can I mix
 > CSS and HTML? I am assuming CSS is some sort of an add-on language and not a
 > replacement of HTML.

Well, I am, yes, and correct.

HTML was always intended only to display the content clearly regardless
of what browser, OS, resolution, graphic display, etc, the user was
operating... it's just that so many people screwed it up, using <font>
tags, <center> tags, <b> when they really wanted to emphasise something
(<em> denotes content).

HTML was not originally intended to affect the presentation of that
content - it was left strictly up to the user. Webdesigners didn't like
this, so they introduced tags like font, center and b to manipulate the
presentation of the page.

CSS suggests to the user how to display the page. Not only is it in
keeping with the original goals of HTML, it's much easier too! After a
few tutorials (http://www.w3schools.com, <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.sitepoint.com," target="_blank">http://www.sitepoint.com,</a> and
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.webmonkey.com" target="_blank">http://www.webmonkey.com</a> should get you started) you will be able to use
CSS to suggest the presentation of your page properly. It is much easier
because you only have to define stuff like paragraph font once, and one
external css file (CSS can be either embedded in the HTML or written as
a .css file) can style thousands of HTML files.

This makes your files smaller, the presentation easier to alter, and the
search engines will love you.

Good luck.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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davidvb

External


Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 114



(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 2:22 pm
Post subject: Re: default fonts - newbie questions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Kkiely wrote:
 > so basically what you are saying is that the "box model" IS a table but you
 > guys just call it a different name (because of the conceptual difference)?

It can be a table... often it is just that. But don't limit yourself to
thinking of it just as a table. It can be so much more. Tables just let
you have a 3x3 page with banner, navigation and content. With CSS
layouts, you can have just about anything.

The irony is that with the box model you can think outside the square Smile<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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web1

External


Since: Jul 03, 2003
Posts: 569



(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:07 pm
Post subject: Re: default fonts - newbie questions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Kkiely wrote:
 > so basically what you are saying is that the "box model" IS a table but you
 > guys just call it a different name (because of the conceptual difference)?
 >

NO

it is a box...with html 4 a table is a way of laying out
data that should be in a table...it has no place in page
layout

layout is done by altering the properties of the "box"
that contains each item of content, or by setting
particular boxes using <div> to separate some of the
content

that's why I suggested you forget what you already
know...tables change by altering specific cells, rows,
columns, or the entire table...a css "box" changes by
altering the properties of that "box" alone

don't try to keep concepts you are already familiar with
from table layout...they won't apply in the same way, far
easier to learn the box model as something entirely new

--
eric
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ericjarvis.co.uk" target="_blank">www.ericjarvis.co.uk</a>
"Hey Lord don't ask me questions
There ain't no answer in me"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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blogan

External


Since: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 285



(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 1:07 pm
Post subject: Re: default fonts - newbie questions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Eric Jarvis" <web.TakeThisOut@ericjarvis.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.19a480a378dbf37e98b527@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
 > Kkiely wrote:
  > > so basically what you are saying is that the "box model" IS a table but
you
  > > guys just call it a different name (because of the conceptual
difference)?
  > >
 >
 > NO
 >
 > it is a box...with html 4 a table is a way of laying out
 > data that should be in a table...it has no place in page
 > layout
 >
 > layout is done by altering the properties of the "box"
 > that contains each item of content, or by setting
 > particular boxes using <div> to separate some of the
 > content
 >
box - table - table box
I don't know if I'm going
I don't know if I'm coming
Is it a container for data
or is it data contained?

Jimmy D is turning now I'll bet.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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web1

External


Since: Jul 03, 2003
Posts: 569



(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 1:07 pm
Post subject: Re: default fonts - newbie questions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Bill Logan wrote:
 >
 > "Eric Jarvis" <web DeleteThis @ericjarvis.co.uk> wrote in message
 > news:MPG.19a480a378dbf37e98b527@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
  > > Kkiely wrote:
   > > > so basically what you are saying is that the "box model" IS a table but
 > you
   > > > guys just call it a different name (because of the conceptual
 > difference)?
   > > >
  > >
  > > NO
  > >
  > > it is a box...with html 4 a table is a way of laying out
  > > data that should be in a table...it has no place in page
  > > layout
  > >
  > > layout is done by altering the properties of the "box"
  > > that contains each item of content, or by setting
  > > particular boxes using <div> to separate some of the
  > > content
  > >
 > box - table - table box
 > I don't know if I'm going
 > I don't know if I'm coming
 > Is it a container for data
 > or is it data contained?
 >
 > Jimmy D is turning now I'll bet.
 >

it's actually a very simple and clear difference...with
css it is a box...that's all, nothing else to it...it
does exactly what it says on the tin...even border,
padding and margin are pretty much self explanatory

a table of data is a set of data arranged in a two
dimensional grid in such a way as to make the
relationships between the various bits of data
clearer...nothing more and nothing less...the only
confusion is that because it can be used to alter the
layout of what it contains depending on user and browser
defaults, a lot of neophobes insist that it's all very
confusing in the hope that if they can keep newcomers to
html confused then they won't feel left behind by new
techniques

I could use a shoe to hammer in a nail...it doesn't mean
that it's therefore reasonable to confuse shoes and
hammers

--
eric
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ericjarvis.co.uk" target="_blank">www.ericjarvis.co.uk</a>
"Hey Lord don't ask me questions
There ain't no answer in me"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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