Accessibility - "instant failure"

"GreyWyvern" <sp_bhuisman.TakeThisOut@greywyvern.com_am> wrote in message
news:oprs5h5fqegk3m3d@news.ican.net...
 > On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 20:59:12 -0400, EightNineThree
 > <eightninethree.TakeThisOut@REMOVEeightninethree.com> wrote:
 >
  > > I've been taking a look at websites in text-only browsers and browsers
  > > with
  > > javascript turned off.
  > > Its actually serving to help ween me off of IE, but that's another
story.
  > >
  > > Anyway, I was wondering if others would consider a site an instant
  > > accessibility failure if it was reliant on javascript? (I would)
  > >
  > > If yes, at what level of js dependence would you consider it a failure?
  > >
  > > 1. If a browser-detect sends you to a dead end? (I say yes)
 >
 > Don't browser detect. Object detect.

My mistake. You're right.
Often, people will detect if javascript is turned on (or even available)

 >
  > > 2. If navigation no longer works? (I say yes)
 >
 > If you base your navigation on javascript, always have fallback (like my
 > own site)

Sadly, hardly anyone does.
Most people's <noscript> is a message saying "Turn on javascript". Yeah,
that's useful!


  > > 3. If substantial portions of content does not display? (I say yes)
 >
 > Depends on what that content is, I says. After working with JavaScript
for
 > a while now, I can build it so it seamlessly disappears if javascript is
 > disabled. Sadly, most people assume it's always on, and don't code
 > fallbacks.
 >
 > JavaScript, used right, is an amazing tool to *enhance* accessibility, but
 > not to create it of course.

I'd like to see examples. My view of javascript is plummeting.


  > > Any other js related instant accessibility failures?
 >
 > While I don't let navigation depend on javascript, I code many complex
 > javascript tools for work, which I've had nary a complaint about. Out of
 > perhaps 70 pages, 6 or 7 are tools which depend on javascript to function.
 > If javascript is disabled, I make sure that a message appears telling the
 > user why the tool isn't working.
 >
 > Seriously, I think the use of javascript is less of an accessibility issue
 > than incorrect or poorly coded markup.

While I agree, I think of poorly used javascript as an instant failure
whereas many other markup issues would be based on severity before I judged
it a failure.


--
Karl Core

Charles Sweeney says my sig is fine as it is.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Accessibility - "instant failure" 

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 21:59:38 -0400, EightNineThree
<eightninethree RemoveThis @REMOVEeightninethree.com> wrote:

  >> JavaScript, used right, is an amazing tool to *enhance* accessibility,
  >> but not to create it of course.
 >
 > I'd like to see examples. My view of javascript is plummeting.

Well for one, the stats page from before:

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.greywyvern.com/orca_ringmaker.php?Stats" target="_blank">http://www.greywyvern.com/orca_ringmaker.php?Stats</a>

View it with javascript on, click on some buttons, then reload it with
javascript off. You'll find that everything that requires javascript just
vanishes without affecting the content.

I've made quite a few really complex tools for work in javascript too, like
coding flash in HTML. But never anything for navigation. I'm not too keen
on giving out the site where I work atm since it's still the old design
(with frames, yuck) that embarasses me! But if you want a look at some of
the goodies I've made (Karl), just email me.

Grey

--
The technical axiom that nothing is impossible sinisterly implies the
pitfall corollory that nothing is ridiculous.
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 >> Stay informed about: Accessibility - "instant failure" 

EightNineThree wrote:
 > I've been taking a look at websites in text-only browsers and
 > browsers with javascript turned off.

text -only is fairly new to me, but I've been running with script off for
several months now. it's a different web.

 > Its actually serving to help ween me off of IE, but that's another
 > story.
 >
 > Anyway, I was wondering if others would consider a site an instant
 > accessibility failure if it was reliant on javascript? (I would)

yep - and a usability failure to boot

 > If yes, at what level of js dependence would you consider it a
 > failure?

any dependence

 > 1. If a browser-detect sends you to a dead end? (I say yes)
 > 2. If navigation no longer works? (I say yes)
 > 3. If substantial portions of content does not display? (I say yes)

all of the above - as I said, any reliance (on js) is a failure

 > Any other js related instant accessibility failures?

they all are?

--
William Tasso - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://WilliamTasso.com" target="_blank">http://WilliamTasso.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Accessibility - "instant failure" 

EightNineThree wrote:
 > "GreyWyvern" <sp_bhuisman DeleteThis @greywyvern.com_am> wrote in message
 > news:oprs5h5fqegk3m3d@news.ican.net...
  >>
  >> ...
  >> JavaScript, used right, is an amazing tool to *enhance*
  >> accessibility, but not to create it of course.
 >
 > I'd like to see examples. My view of javascript is plummeting.
 >
Still experimental but I think it degrades gracefully:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://williamtasso.com/sitemap.asp" target="_blank">http://williamtasso.com/sitemap.asp</a>


--
William Tasso - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://WilliamTasso.com" target="_blank">http://WilliamTasso.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Accessibility - "instant failure" 

"William Tasso" <ngx.TakeThisOut@tbdata.com> wrote in message
news:bgaqe5$mqc26$1@ID-139074.news.uni-berlin.de...
 > EightNineThree wrote:
  > > "GreyWyvern" <sp_bhuisman.TakeThisOut@greywyvern.com_am> wrote in message
  > > news:oprs5h5fqegk3m3d@news.ican.net...
   > >>
   > >> ...
   > >> JavaScript, used right, is an amazing tool to *enhance*
   > >> accessibility, but not to create it of course.
  > >
  > > I'd like to see examples. My view of javascript is plummeting.
  > >
 > Still experimental but I think it degrades gracefully:
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://williamtasso.com/sitemap.asp</font" target="_blank">http://williamtasso.com/sitemap.asp</font</a>>
 >

I think it degrades well. Using Mozilla with javascript turned off, it does
exactly what you need it to do.
Just FYI - It doesn't work at all in IE6, Win2k. Dunno if you're still
working on it.
I see what you're getting at and it is a good example of graceful
degradation (except for the 404 errors I get on IE6)

BTW - kudos on the HD page.
Here's my old bike - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://eightninethree.com/images/fxr4.jpg" target="_blank">http://eightninethree.com/images/fxr4.jpg</a>


--
Karl Core

Charles Sweeney says my sig is fine as it is.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Accessibility - "instant failure" 

EightNineThree wrote:

<font color=purple> > Here's my old bike - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://eightninethree.com/images/fxr4.jpg</font" target="_blank">http://eightninethree.com/images/fxr4.jpg</font</a>>

"The image ?http://eightninethree.com/images/fxr4.jpg? cannot be displayed,
because it contains errors."

Firebird 0.6 no js...

--
bc
A: Top posters.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Accessibility - "instant failure" 

EightNineThree wrote:
 > "William Tasso" <ngx RemoveThis @tbdata.com> wrote in message
 > news:bgaqe5$mqc26$1@ID-139074.news.uni-berlin.de...
  >> EightNineThree wrote:
   >>> "GreyWyvern" <sp_bhuisman RemoveThis @greywyvern.com_am> wrote in message
   >>> news:oprs5h5fqegk3m3d@news.ican.net...
   >>>>
   >>>> ...
   >>>> JavaScript, used right, is an amazing tool to *enhance*
   >>>> accessibility, but not to create it of course.
   >>>
   >>> I'd like to see examples. My view of javascript is plummeting.
   >>>
  >> Still experimental but I think it degrades gracefully:
<font color=green>  >> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://williamtasso.com/sitemap.asp</font" target="_blank">http://williamtasso.com/sitemap.asp</font</a>>
  >>
 >
 > I think it degrades well. Using Mozilla with javascript turned off,
 > it does exactly what you need it to do.

oh good - but I think Moz is where it doesn't do the initial collapse if j/s
is on. not sure why - perhaps one of the j/s gurus could take a peek?

 > Just FYI - It doesn't work at all in IE6, Win2k.

I 'd like to know what doesn't work if you get a moment because it seems ok
in ie6/win2k here.

 > Dunno if you're still
 > working on it.

yes I am - in between real work ;o)

 > I see what you're getting at and it is a good example of graceful
 > degradation (except for the 404 errors I get on IE6)

do you mean 'directory listing denied' ? I'm not sure what to do about
those - I suppose I could get the script to test the link but I'm wary of
putting too much code in a dynamic listing. It could take a tremendous
performance hit on a large site.

or something else?
 >
 > BTW - kudos on the HD page.
<font color=purple> > Here's my old bike - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://eightninethree.com/images/fxr4.jpg</font" target="_blank">http://eightninethree.com/images/fxr4.jpg</font</a>>

nice - cash permitting (not likely) an fxr - sport probably - is next up
for me. the sportster is a terriffic scoot and I won't be outing it even
for a new bike. dunno what it's like over there, but in the UK it's hard to
find a (HD) franchised dealer with a personality. There's lots of good folk
in the trade but they tend to be working for the independents. Maybe
something to do with the market here: the bikes are fairly pricey and
there's always a wait time especially for a particular model or colour
--
William Tasso - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://WilliamTasso.com" target="_blank">http://WilliamTasso.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Accessibility - "instant failure" 

"William Tasso" <ngx RemoveThis @tbdata.com> wrote in message
news:bgavdl$mbfbo$1@ID-139074.news.uni-berlin.de...
 > EightNineThree wrote:
  > > "William Tasso" <ngx RemoveThis @tbdata.com> wrote in message
  > > news:bgaqe5$mqc26$1@ID-139074.news.uni-berlin.de...
   > >> EightNineThree wrote:
   > >>> "GreyWyvern" <sp_bhuisman RemoveThis @greywyvern.com_am> wrote in message
   > >>> news:oprs5h5fqegk3m3d@news.ican.net...
   > >>>>
   > >>>> ...
   > >>>> JavaScript, used right, is an amazing tool to *enhance*
   > >>>> accessibility, but not to create it of course.
   > >>>
   > >>> I'd like to see examples. My view of javascript is plummeting.
   > >>>
   > >> Still experimental but I think it degrades gracefully:
<font color=brown>   > >> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://williamtasso.com/sitemap.asp</font" target="_blank">http://williamtasso.com/sitemap.asp</font</a>>
   > >>
  > >
  > > I think it degrades well. Using Mozilla with javascript turned off,
  > > it does exactly what you need it to do.
 >
 > oh good - but I think Moz is where it doesn't do the initial collapse if
j/s
 > is on. not sure why - perhaps one of the j/s gurus could take a peek?
 >
  > > Just FYI - It doesn't work at all in IE6, Win2k.
 >
 > I 'd like to know what doesn't work if you get a moment because it seems
ok
 > in ie6/win2k here.
 >
  > > I see what you're getting at and it is a good example of graceful
  > > degradation (except for the 404 errors I get on IE6)
 >
 > do you mean 'directory listing denied' ? I'm not sure what to do about
 > those - I suppose I could get the script to test the link but I'm wary of
 > putting too much code in a dynamic listing. It could take a tremendous
 > performance hit on a large site.
 >
 > or something else?
  >

In IE6, when I clicked on one of the directory pages, it went to a 403 page
(sorry, I thought it was 404)
For instance - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://williamtasso.com/image/" target="_blank">http://williamtasso.com/image/</a>
You might wanna put up a place holder there and/ or not make that directory
a link in the sitemap's display.

Same for the "Usenet" folder.

What's weird is that, on IE6 when I reload the page, I can see the directory
contract.
So I'm just assuming that clicking the Directory would cause a show/hide
layer effect and would display a list of files in that directory. (like Moz
does with js off)


  > > BTW - kudos on the HD page.
<font color=green>  > > Here's my old bike - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://eightninethree.com/images/fxr4.jpg</font" target="_blank">http://eightninethree.com/images/fxr4.jpg</font</a>>
 >
 > nice - cash permitting (not likely) an fxr - sport probably - is next up
 > for me. the sportster is a terriffic scoot and I won't be outing it even
 > for a new bike. dunno what it's like over there, but in the UK it's hard
to
 > find a (HD) franchised dealer with a personality.

Yeah, in the US, they're mostly slime. I've worked for 4 of the country's
largest dealers. They're typically either run by people who are very nice
people but dumber than dogshit, or they're slimeballs.
I worked for a dealership that charged $10k OVER MSRP for V-Rods and
$1500-$4000 over MSRP for anything in the Softail family.


 >There's lots of good folk
 > in the trade but they tend to be working for the independents. Maybe
 > something to do with the market here: the bikes are fairly pricey and
 > there's always a wait time especially for a particular model or colour
 > --

Wait time is caused by HD's reluctance to match their supply with current
demand. They don't want to end up in a carmaker situation where the end of
the model year is met with massive closeouts and below-invoice price
slashing. Limiting their production enhances brand strength, retains profit
margin, and actually helps the market share. Of course, that matters
fuckall to the guy whose ass is actually in the seat...


--
Karl Core

Charles Sweeney says my sig is fine as it is.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Accessibility - "instant failure" 

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 12:51:42 +0100, William Tasso <ngx RemoveThis @tbdata.com> wrote:

 > EightNineThree wrote:
  >> "William Tasso" <ngx RemoveThis @tbdata.com> wrote in message
  >> news:bgaqe5$mqc26$1@ID-139074.news.uni-berlin.de...
   >>> EightNineThree wrote:
   >>>> "GreyWyvern" <sp_bhuisman RemoveThis @greywyvern.com_am> wrote in message
   >>>> news:oprs5h5fqegk3m3d@news.ican.net...
   >>>>>
   >>>>> ...
   >>>>> JavaScript, used right, is an amazing tool to *enhance*
   >>>>> accessibility, but not to create it of course.
   >>>>
   >>>> I'd like to see examples. My view of javascript is plummeting.
   >>>>
   >>> Still experimental but I think it degrades gracefully:
<font color=brown>   >>> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://williamtasso.com/sitemap.asp</font" target="_blank">http://williamtasso.com/sitemap.asp</font</a>>
   >>>
  >>
  >> I think it degrades well. Using Mozilla with javascript turned off,
  >> it does exactly what you need it to do.
 >
 > oh good - but I think Moz is where it doesn't do the initial collapse if
 > j/s
 > is on. not sure why - perhaps one of the j/s gurus could take a peek?

In function smcollapse change both instances of
divNodeList[i].getAttribute('className') to divNodeList[i].className

Mozilla's getAttribute function doesn't seem to be returning the variables
you want as expected. Referring to them directly will fix the problem.

Grey

--
The technical axiom that nothing is impossible sinisterly implies the
pitfall corollory that nothing is ridiculous.
- <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.greywyvern.com" target="_blank">http://www.greywyvern.com</a> - Orca RingMaker: PHP web ring creation and
management<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Accessibility - "instant failure" 

EightNineThree wrote:
 > If yes, at what level of js dependence would you consider it a
 > failure?
 >
 > 1. If a browser-detect sends you to a dead end? (I say yes)
 > 2. If navigation no longer works? (I say yes)
 > 3. If substantial portions of content does not display? (I say yes)

4. Forms fail to work

--
Rick

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 >> Stay informed about: Accessibility - "instant failure" 

GreyWyvern wrote:
 >
 > Seriously, I think the use of javascript is less of an accessibility issue
 > than incorrect or poorly coded markup. However, I still make sure that
 > anything to do with javascript falls under the "that's-so-cool" extras
 > department
 >

absolutely...the crucial thing is to build a site from
the ground up...if you do that right and everything else
is clearly seen as an optional extra when you add it,
then there are almost no accessibility issues

building a web site is like building a house...if you do
the interior decoration first and only get around to the
foundations later then it isn't going to be particularly
safe to live in...if you build a web site by making it
look pretty first then it isn't going to work reliably

if you get the site architecture right and take care not
to alter anything that is "structural" then what you add
in terms of additional functionality is unlikely ever to
be a problem

--
eric
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ericjarvis.co.uk" target="_blank">www.ericjarvis.co.uk</a>
"Hey Lord don't ask me questions
There ain't no answer in me"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Accessibility - "instant failure" 

"EightNineThree" <eightninethree RemoveThis @REMOVEeightninethree.com> wrote in message
news:bg9psi$oaf$2@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
 > I've been taking a look at websites in text-only browsers and browsers
with
 > javascript turned off.
 > Its actually serving to help ween me off of IE, but that's another story.
 >
 > Anyway, I was wondering if others would consider a site an instant
 > accessibility failure if it was reliant on javascript? (I would)
 >
 > If yes, at what level of js dependence would you consider it a failure?
 >
 > 1. If a browser-detect sends you to a dead end? (I say yes)
 > 2. If navigation no longer works? (I say yes)
 > 3. If substantial portions of content does not display? (I say yes)
 >
 > Any other js related instant accessibility failures?
 >
Its only a failure to those who turn js off.
To those of us who leave it on js can often enhance the Internet experience,
at least for those of us who are looking for more than simple information
and something to read!<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Accessibility - "instant failure" 

Bill Logan wrote:

  >> 1. If a browser-detect sends you to a dead end? (I say yes)
  >> 2. If navigation no longer works? (I say yes)
  >> 3. If substantial portions of content does not display? (I say yes)

  >> Any other js related instant accessibility failures?

 > Its only a failure to those who turn js off.
 > To those of us who leave it on js can often enhance the Internet
 > experience, at least for those of us who are looking for more than simple
 > information and something to read!

Well written JavaScript degrades gracefully. There is nothing to prevent a
browser from having cute JS powered navigation that still works (as
navigation, if not cute) with JS disabled.

--
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Which is stupider: Pop-up ads claiming they'll stop spam, or spam claiming
it'll stop pop-up ads? -- Dork Tower<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Accessibility - "instant failure"